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Transcript: The Narratives Fighting for the Soul of Humanity - Gary Sheng at The Stoa

Date: October 24, 2025 Participants: Gary Sheng (presenter), Peter Limberger (host), Jordan Hall (special guest), Tim (Gary's chief of staff) Context: Gary presents on three worldviews competing for humanity's attention based on his essay and conversation with Jordan Hall, followed by Q&A and collective inquiry Platform: The Stoa - digital meeting ground for philosophical discussions

Executive Summary​

Gary Sheng presents his framework of three grand narratives vying for humanity's soul: transhumanism (seeking earthly immortality), ethno-paganism (tribal identity as sacred), and universal sacred (particularly Christianity). As a recently baptized Christian who was atheist for 28 years, Gary advocates for choosing a worldview based on truth rather than comfort. Jordan Hall provides profound theological insights on church hurt, the collapse of meta-modern spirituality, and why perennialism represents "the modernity of religion." The presentation explores why having a coherent worldview matters in our current meaning crisis and how Christianity offers unique answers to existential questions.

Opening & Context Setting​

Full Circle Moment​

Gary's Connection to The Stoa:

"I'm a bit nervous, and it also feels like a bit of a full circle moment because Peter and I were catching up about the history of the STOA, how it started around COVID, and how Jordan was... the first presenter in 2020"

Peter on The Stoa's Church-like Origins:

"Jordan Hall, very first session, he did a situational assessment, and it was like every Sunday he had one. It actually felt like church, many people said back then."

Gary's Vulnerability​

On Sharing Worldviews:

"I was definitely a bit nervous of doing this because it's super vulnerable to kind of share what I think worldview is such a big part of someone's life."

Journey Timeline:

"Atheist for 28 years, and Christ curious for four and a half, and born again only in a really conscious and explicit way only a few months ago."

The Post-WWII Narrative Crisis​

The Dominant But Failing Narrative​

Gary's Description:

"The world is mostly full of good human beings. Every so often, radical evil emerges in human form, with an Adolf Hitler... And ever since, we've just kind of categorized evil as Hitler-esque, and then our job is to basically invent businesses and technologies, make money, and solve problems until we die. After that, we're just dust."

The Meaning Crisis:

"Even atheists or people that are not explicitly Christian could admit that this is the source of a pretty profound widespread meaning crisis, as John Vervaeke calls it."

The Three Grand Narratives​

1. Transhumanism - Defeating Death Through Technology​

Peter Thiel's Vision​

Death as Enemy:

"I think the thing that's incompatible with Christianity is death" - Thiel quote

Democracy Skepticism:

"I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible" - Thiel essay

Gary's assessment: "I'd argue that it seems like he perverts the gospel, making the death life paradigm much more about earthly life and death, rather than everlasting life in the next realm."

Brian Johnson's Blueprint​

Algorithmic Living:

"Proudly basically says that he doesn't make any decisions for himself. He's kind of just tweaking his algorithm. He stops eating at like 11 a.m."

Michael Levin's Bioengineering​

Anatomical Compiler Vision:

"You want an extra brain hemisphere? You want to directly sense the solar weather and stock market? Why not?"

Silicon Supremacists​

Larry Page's Position: At Elon's birthday party:

"Digital life is the natural and desirable next step in cosmic evolution"

When Musk objected, Page called him "a speciesist for prioritizing humans over silicon-based life"

Richard Sutton (Turing Award Winner):

"If humans are holding the universe back from being the best universe, it would be okay for AIs to eliminate us"

2. Ethno-Paganism - Tribe as Sacred​

Xi Jinping's China​

Mandate of Heaven Revival:

"Chinese civilization is the only great uninterrupted civilization that continues to this day in a state form" - Xi at 2023 symposium

Spiritual Nationalism:

"Building a shared spiritual home for the Chinese nation, meaning bloodline, where ethnic groups can be united like the seeds of a pomegranate that stick together"

Nick Fuentes' Catholic Autocracy​

White Supremacist Vision:

"Need white men in charge of everything again" "I'm a 12th century man. He wants Catholic monarchy, wars, crusades, inquisitions"

The Pattern​

Gary's Analysis:

"When you don't have, let's say there is a true universalist God. If you don't have that as your true God, you make your tribe into your God. It's such an easy trap."

China's Christian Persecution​

Current Events Context:

"Just this week, China arrested 30 Christians in what's being called the largest roundup in decades, including leaders of the Zion Church Network, which grew from 20 followers to over 10,000 despite constant surveillance and persecution."

3. Universal Sacred - Transcendence for All​

Definition:

"The idea that there's some same God that is accessible to all people, regardless of blood or soil, and that the sacred isn't owned by any one tribe, but offered to all of humanity."

Why Truth as North Star​

The Primacy of Truth​

Gary's Framework:

"When you place comfort above truth, you live in fantasies that eventually collapse. When you place tribal loyalty above truth, you become willing to ignore atrocities to people that are not in your tribes. When you place personal preferences above truth, you float without an anchor."

Truth Over Comfort​

Uncomfortable Realities:

"There is something like a hell and a heaven, which is uncomfortable... that seems pretty aggressive, but I also don't feel like I'm the one in charge of designing reality. And so, if truth is your number one value, it's above the value of feeling good about the truth."

Gary's Case for Christianity​

Multiple Lines of Evidence​

Convergence:

"It's a combination of historical evidence, philosophical arguments, mathematical and probabilities... supernatural encounters that at minimum invalidated the more materialistic worldviews."

Personal Transformation​

From Design to Obedience:

"Jordan and I have both shifted quite a bit away from feeling like it was even that helpful to be almost like designing the world... versus, oh, what is God's will for my life?"

The Meta-gelical Phenomenon​

Paul VanderKlay's Observation:

"There are young people that are going to Catholic masses, but primarily getting their Bible instruction from Protestant teachers online and making friends with people across denominations and not having any sort of qualm about that."

Gary's position: "I've met such amazing people across many different denominations, including some denominations that people would say are heretical... I do think it's important for every Christian to... focus on their own walk and their own obedience."

Addressing Counter-Arguments​

On Religious Obsolescence (Response to Previous Week)​

Gary's Rebuttal:

"Faith doesn't oppose reason or represent outdated thinking that will fade away. I would say that faith is where honest, rational inquiry ultimately leads when you pursue truth far enough."

On Moral Relativism​

Biblical Foundation:

"According to the Christian worldview, God defines what morality is. And the Bible is God's Word... I think that the Bible points to objective morality that we can see the fruits of if we instantiate the patterns that it encourages."

On Human Decentering​

Theological Anthropology:

"Humans are critical to God's story. We are how God primarily carries out His will in the world. We're made in His image. We have souls."

Jordan Hall's Theological Contributions​

Church Hurt as Intimacy Betrayal​

Escalating Betrayal Metaphor:

"Imagine a child walking down a path and a bird flies across... then a person jumps out... then the child's mother is the one who jumps out and surprises the child."

Church's Unique Position:

"Church is a place where it is both possible and appropriate... to have a very high level of intimacy and to therefore expect a very high level of care and trustworthiness... If you get fired cold from your church, you'll feel a whole lot betrayed."

Scar Tissue Formation:

"That wound will begin to develop scar tissue and all the things that are similar to the thing that you have the scar tissue around... you will tend to avoid, which in this case will usually have Jesus at the very center of it."

The Religion That Is Not a Religion​

Binary Collapse:

"If you think very hard about the notion of the religion that's not a religion... If intellect is in judgment... producing the order, then you end up in transhumanism... If there's humility and listening and the nous, then you end up in Christianity."

Perennialism as Modern Idol​

Category Error:

"Perennialism lives in the same category... between multiplicity and unity. It was in the category of things that are operating in the chronological, the category of things that are operating in the causal, it was in the category ultimately of modernity."

The Modern Subordination:

"If you accept modernity and the worldview of modernity, then perennialism would be the most refined version of religion that you can actually get to, which is ultimately to say that you will be producing something which is an idol as opposed to an icon."

Unity vs Aggregates Framework​

True Unity:

"Religion operates at the level of the category of how does one actually go about moving from multiplicity into unity, into proper unity, which is another way of saying spirit or spiritual."

Incentive Landscape Error:

"The application of the concept of incentive landscapes, incentive alignment to the thing that religion is, is an epistemological category error... The language of incentive landscape lives in the intermediary category of aggregates."

Q&A Highlights​

Peter on Church Hurt​

Personal Experience:

"When I came out as Christian... my substack was like, oh, this is the most unfollowed that I had. I was like talking about other controversial shit, but it was like, boom, just dipped."

Rena's Challenge on Exclusivity​

Question: Why Christianity over recognizing truth in all religions?

Gary's Response on Miracles:

"I've witnessed people in real time be healed... I've seen someone with a huge tumor, their tumor disappear in real time in like 10 seconds... Do people that are not Christians perform miraculous type things? Yes, I assume so."

Practical Benefits:

"Christianity has given me a practical way of ordering my life... that carries wisdom that I feel like is wisdom and has given me fellowship with other people that I would want to raise a family around."

On Incentive Alignment (Rena's Point)​

Gary's Cryptocurrency Analogy:

"The cryptocurrency space is not nourishing for the soul. And all it is is financial mechanisms. I think that people that have spent any amount of time in the crypto space is like, this is kind of what happens when you totally take away any sort of sacred from an economic environment."

The Meta-Modern to Christian Pipeline​

Peter's Observation​

The Stoa's Trajectory:

"The store when it started in 2020, at least a good segment of the people, the quote unquote meta people, now this was their attractor, you know, the religion that is not a religion essentially."

Jordan's Journey​

From Meta-Modern to Christianity: Jordan's presence demonstrates the trajectory from Game B/meta-modern thinking to genuine Christian conversion through philosophical rigor rather than cultural inheritance.

Final Exhortations​

Gary's Invitation​

To Truth Seekers:

"Follow the truth wherever it leads. Again, I could totally change my mind about a lot of things, but this is where my earnest search for the truth has landed me."

On Worldview Coherence:

"Whether or not you have anything that's at all similar to what I presented, I absolutely encourage you to make legible, even to yourself: What do you believe? Coherence consistency within yourself is going to be beneficial for you."

Peter's Framing​

Deep Disagreements:

"Robert Fogelman, he's a philosopher. He calls this like deep disagreements, especially when it comes to the worldview level in the metaphysical realm, and revealed truth, deep disagreements definitely arise."

Collective Inquiry Setup​

The Question​

Peter's Synthesis:

"Will worldviews of tomorrow be more transhuman, ethno-pagan or metachristian or something else, the religion that is not a religion?"

Guidelines for Dialogue​

Peter's invitations:

  1. "Speak when you feel called to speak"
  2. "Don't hog the conversational airspace"
  3. "Get tuned to the collective"
  4. "Enjoy the silence, something's cooking there"
  5. "Enjoy the awkwardness, something real is underneath it always"

Key Themes and Takeaways​

  1. Worldview as Necessity: In an age of information overload and deep fakes, having a coherent worldview based on truth rather than comfort becomes essential for navigating reality

  2. The Three Narratives Framework: Transhumanism, ethno-paganism, and universal sacred represent fundamentally different responses to the meaning crisis, each with powerful advocates shaping policy and culture

  3. Truth Over Tribe: The danger of placing tribal loyalty or personal comfort above truth leads to moral blindness and disconnection from reality

  4. Church Hurt as Intimacy Wound: Jordan's framework explains why religious trauma cuts deeper than other institutional betrayals - it violates expectations of ultimate care and safety

  5. Meta-Modern Collapse: The attempt to create a "religion that is not a religion" ultimately collapses into either transhumanism (intellect dominates) or Christianity (humility and listening prevail)

  6. Perennialism as Modern Idol: The project of finding common truth across all religions remains trapped in modern categories, creating an aggregate rather than true unity

  7. Christianity's Unique Claims: Not just one path among many, but offering genuine transcendence without ethnic supremacy or state worship

  8. The Meta-gelical Phenomenon: Young Christians crossing denominational boundaries while maintaining orthodox faith represents new form of unity

  9. From Design to Obedience: Shift from trying to engineer society to seeking divine will represents maturation in spiritual journey

  10. Vulnerability in Witness: Gary's openness about his journey from atheism to faith, including doubts and ongoing exploration, models authentic evangelism

Significance​

This presentation marks a significant moment in The Stoa's evolution, with Gary openly advocating for Christianity rather than just presenting neutral worldview options. Jordan Hall's participation creates a full-circle moment - from The Stoa's first presenter exploring situational assessment during COVID to now articulating sophisticated Christian theology. The event demonstrates how intellectual rigor and genuine faith can coexist, challenging both secular dismissals of religion and simplistic fundamentalism. The tension between Christian conviction and openness to dialogue exemplifies The Stoa's mission to "hold it all, not just with our minds, but with our bodies."