Metadata
Spiritual Business and Kingdom Work Discussion
Gary Sheng and Peter Han - August 1, 2025
Summer House Restaurant, Austin, Texas
Executive Summary
This conversation captures a profound discussion between Gary Sheng and Peter Han about the intersection of spiritual growth, kingdom work, and business strategy. The dialogue occurs after Gary's first visit to an Orthodox monastery and explores themes of divine timing versus human effort, the nature of discipleship, kingdom work versus charity, and the spiritual warfare aspects of contemporary business and politics. Peter shares insights from his extensive experience in faith-based business consulting while Gary reflects on his spiritual journey away from secular activism toward Christ-centered leadership development.
Gary's Spiritual Evolution and Monastery Experience
Post-Monastery Spiritual Clarity
Gary's Immediate Reflection:
"I went to a monastery today... Holy archangels. I'm honestly fine with water. I think I'll get a cold brew."
Year of Spiritual Seeking:
"Honestly, not too much to discuss on it. Just in general, I was explaining to my friend I was meeting at Two Hands how I would even describe the last year. It's basically been monk mode... especially my frustrations working with the Catholic Church. It was like that second half of last year. It really forced me to think about what it meant to be a Christian."
Denominational Exploration:
"I don't think that one denomination has a monopoly on good fruit. But it's been a joy to be very eagerly seeking and openly seeking. Really just humbly be like, yeah, this tastes good, this fruit tastes good. What might be missing? Now I'm at the point where I'm like, everyone needs to try going to an Orthodox monastery. At least once."
Spiritual Mentorship Role:
"I've been enjoying starting to play a role in other people that are having parallel journeys. No journey looks the same. Just being there to support and be like, God's got you, keep walking in faith. Maybe keep your secular income stream for a little bit, but transition more and more towards purely kingdom work as much as you can."
Self-Examination of Motives
Questioning the Music Festival Vision:
"I've also had this realization that I was... Or that I at minimum needed to ask more humbly whether a giant Coachella type music festival was God's will or me wanting to have the most flamboyant... God! Showcase. Was that a God thing or was it me wanting to flex God? Out of insecurity and whatever."
Learning Divine Timing:
"I think I'm just getting... I'm just falling more in line with... I'm trying to fall more in line with what I think God actually wants me to do. Which is to not force things and impose my will and artificial ideas of what I think needs to happen. That's the hardest lesson I've learned as a viewer."
Peter's Kingdom Business Philosophy
Building in the Flesh vs. God's Timing
Foundational Principle:
Peter: "You can make it happen, but if you build it in the flesh, you have to sustain it in the flesh. Because being too early is just as bad as being too late. When you're doing it in God's timing..."
Gary's Response:
Gary: "Wow, I've never heard that. Build it in the flesh. Do you like, will it with your flesh?" Peter: "Yeah." Gary: "Then you're just constantly..."
Divine Timing Recognition:
Peter: "The timing with you and my elf feels like one of those things. It's like, that wasn't supposed to happen. It was supposed to happen down there... even if it was like a month off, like, it just..."
Kingdom Work vs. Scale Mentality
The Discipleship Model:
"You start in Paris, do that. And I told you this before, and I saw your work down the way, in terms of the spread of the message, right? Because they need help, and there's really few people that can do it. And you turn Israel, and you help him get logged in. He affects millions, tens of millions, maybe even billions, right?"
The Difficulty of Character Work:
"So, it's a very hard job. It's hard. You don't get the dopamine hit, because it's not like you're working with a homeless, and you have to get the guy off the street. It's like, that's a piece of good ideology. It's this kind of fabulous thing where you're working with a guy's character, and then eventually you see him do great."
Counter-Cultural Nature:
"So, it makes it seem to a lot of people less godly, but it's equally as bad... It's so counter to Silicon Valley thinking, where everyone's just trying to get users in MRR and shit like that."
First-Century Discipleship Model
Seven-Year Process:
"In first-century church, the average person had to walk with someone for about seven years before that person would be baptized. I needed to hear that. Wow. And also because they were persecuted."
Community Validation:
"And the way they did it is the person who was discipling the other person would say, I think you're ready to be called a disciple. And then all the other elders would also walk with him, would examine him and pray about it, and then they would have to be in agreement and say, okay, now you can be yourself as a disciple."
Generational Impact:
"So let's say your entire lifetime, you may have made three disciples, right? But that's the only thing that Jesus cared about, because those three would make three, right?"
Character as the Unscalable Foundation:
"The hardest thing to scale is character. And it's the only thing that you can guarantee can make a difference in this world. And you scale character through discipleship."
Kingdom Work Framework
Peter's Definition of Kingdom Projects
Systemic vs. Charitable Approach:
"So this is essentially the work that I do. We work towards solving big problems in the kingdom with a network of people who can fund it and are not worried necessarily about returns. But one of the tensions here, though, that's good, is that any true kingdom project, even if it costs $100 billion to get started, eventually starts funding itself, right?"
Self-Sustaining Principle:
"A kingdom project is different from charity. We need charity, right? A kingdom project is one that solves systemic issues, whether it's poverty, inequality, race, right? Or else... Which blesses Christians and non-Christians alike, right? And eventually becomes self-sustaining."
Both/And Approach:
Gary: "It's not about whether you work on systemic change or the band-aid safety net." Peter: "You have to do both. You have to do both, right? So, and you'll always have the poor, because even in classical economics, even in a perfect system, we still have like 3% unemployment, so that's good, right?"
Systemic Change Imperative:
"The kingdom work, if you look at it from a group perspective, is how do we change the systems that are causing the alien, the orphan, the poor, and the widowed to fall between the cracks, right? Or to be created and worthless. Changing the system may take 20 years, or like only one year."
Church Metrics Critique
Modern Church Success Metrics:
"Even in 20... I think 2020 was the latest 10-year survey that the Shabarner group took, and they asked something like 1,000 church sizes, all sizes, denominations, whatever else. What are the three most important metrics that you use for church success? They said... Church size. Tithings. Tithing."
Gary's Assessment:
"That's literally the same thing as an atheistic nonprofit."
Real Estate Investment Opportunity
The Deal Structure
Gary's Description:
"The TLDR is... It's the most long-term thinking real estate genius who's a finance guy who became a real estate guy because he just applied finance and arbitrage. So, he'll like... He like finds hidden in plain sight opportunity like a giant, almost like field in the middle of the city."
Strategic Acquisition:
"And he'll like secretly buy up all the little lots that make up a giant thing. And he's like selling stake in these like things that are going to be like the next whole district. But he has like three of them. And they're all... Four of them, actually. And they form like a diamond in like really good areas."
Community Integration:
"His main development partner is a black lady. Okay. He's deeply embedded with a black church. Churches here. Yeah. And they want on every sixth floor... Or something like that. To have cultural music center."
Investment Details:
Peter: "How much does he need?" Gary: "30 million." Peter: "What does 30 million get you?" Gary: "He says like a pretty quick... Like flip. Like if you just wanted to sell your position in it, you get like 3x and like..."
Spiritual Warfare and Contemporary Evil
Gary's Recognition of Systemic Evil
Tech Industry Connections:
"I was explaining like how I felt Grateful for God for putting me in the rooms where I get I've gotten to meet the people that are leading the charge towards Our transhumanist dystopian future Like I know like I literally I literally know I know the people That if I don't haven't met them 50 people, I know have met them My Peter Teal like he's like getting very sickly selling his soul."
Vatican Experience:
"No, I got to see a very up-close with the Vatican I was like reflecting on some of the things that I was Different cardinals accusing Pope Francis of some opening up demon portals. I was like Well, it's validated by literally people in Vatican City, so it's like take that as you."
Epstein Revelation:
"And and then the Jeffrey Epstein thing just like basically made it impossible to ignore That these like rumors about like this person This was just secretly working together in a kind of Worshipping a ball like and it's like cross religion."
Neutrality as Collaboration with Evil
Spiritual Warfare Framework:
"Neutrality is on the side of the enemy. Yeah, because you're because because you're being totally manipulated by ball Because you're collaborating with people that know that you're just bribe a ball So you worship up mammon, right if you worship them and yours you they can just do what you're literally a puppet You're literally an inanimate object."
Leadership Development Calling:
"You know, it's not an accident that I felt a calling even in my atheistic stage to do civic leadership development Because I was so disappointed in the nature of our leaders, but I was just doing it the wrong way. I identified Roughly some of the right problem, but the wrong execution Because if you do it in a secular way you get totally manipulated by game theoretic demonic forces essentially."
Idolatry Recognition
Financial Idolatry:
"Praise of you, that's what I like You can so clear to me That you cannot idolize billionaire. You cannot idolize 2025 Twitter likes or Ever like ever Well No part of my god-fearing logical mind and logical mind has allowed me to Justify Destroying my spiritual integrity just to have a paycheck for a little longer."
Cultural and Racial Dynamics
Asian/Indian Moral Flexibility
Gary's Observation:
"Indians are the most morally Because they not all but The desire to be accepted by white society is a problem for all minorities. Yes. Yes agree Indians Just from my experience Certain Indians will just do anything for white powerful person validation."
Humiliation Ritual Dynamic:
"You know history doesn't exactly repeat but it rhymes where you have a narcissistic white slave that is unreasonable and You know, there's no coherence, but you kind of take it it's almost like a They're almost doing an unintentional just like Humiliation ritual of like yeah, you're not gonna get any logic from me, but you're still gonna obey."
Peter's Analysis:
"And I think that Indian in particular They have too much to lose at that point Even if they know what they're doing and they're also taught It's way my parents tried to teach me just put your head down. Don't cause this thing. Just obey what the boss tells you."
Fear vs. Faith:
Peter: "I'm amazed at how much humiliation though people are willing to go through because again, it's great amendment and it's not even like I'm greedy. It's more like I can't lose the security Okay That's what drives more Asians Yes, there's great everywhere. At least the upper-middle class Fear it's still the spirit of women."
Gary's Spiritual Framework:
"It's like my money this regular paycheck Because the opposite of faith is fear right opposite of Love is fear perfect Altogether right faith love trust God trust in his ontology. All right, that's That's why My own experience of life has changed a lot because I am I'm able to fully more fully Grasp the evil that's out there so that any new evil Instance of evil does not shake me right."
Two Systems Framework
Peter's Fundamental Teaching
Binary Choice:
"It's almost simpler than that Which is 16 Jesus Right, he didn't say you cannot serve with God That's true Yeah, such a good line. There's only two Systems They sent you a study I did on rest right it's Empire showroom it is It is eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil or eating from the tree of life, right? There's only two systems In the world, right?"
Tree of Knowledge vs. Tree of Life:
Gary: "Can you explain to me in simple terms like What it means to eat from the tree of good and evil?" Peter: "What I would say is the PLDR here Is Eating from the tree of life is about I need to do it myself and by the sweat of my own brow Will I achieve things? Whereas It's basically trusting the story Trusting that you can't screw up your life."
Trust vs. Control:
"Whereas when you're eating on a tree of life It's nerve-wracking unless you have trust Because you can go through Yes, there's been there's plenty of examples of people Like surviving, yeah, but they're just like and even their own sense Yeah, yeah, but it is Thank you so much."
Practical Logistics and Future Plans
Peter's Move to LA
Geographic Transition:
"I'm leaning Returning to LA I Oh Went on my back... Still this city with the most beautiful West side of LA most beautiful was Just I didn't love Jesus temptation would be really really Oh women."
Housing Offer to Gary:
"Anytime you fly out the LA just crash Thank you... And then just going in and out it's basically even my place just Any food there you can eat but I'm at this point now where I'm starting to give away so I can't guarantee what's gonna be Left in that's what I figured but I will have the Arrow bed because that might be what I need to sleep."
LA Connection Opportunity
Crypto/Music Industry Contact:
Gary: "Funny enough one person. I wanted to introduce you if I visited you in LA, but you'll just be in LA This guy that made a bunch of made some amount of money This crypto project One of the music crypto projects... So he bought this giant warehouse He is on a journey to Christ and I think you would love to be Discipled Supported and in fellowship."
Jesus Immersive Experience:
"and he recently Has helped a calling to help create a Jesus immersive experience I think that we've talked about this before I knew that he was you know This was like perfect. Like I don't need to be the one doing it It's it's the same person that did the recent James Cameron avatar immersive experience or something like that So to do that for Christ is like wow, like it's totally been on my heart."
Key Insights and Spiritual Principles
Character Development Impossibility to Scale
Fundamental Limitation:
Peter: "You can't scale building characters. That's the one thing that I've learned is that even the characters that I've built, I think you can definitely accelerate the process, but you can't scale the steps, right?"
Community-Based Formation:
Gary: "Well, what you can do, importantly, is avoid them developing the wrong character first so they have to unlearn a bunch of stuff. Yeah. And that's why I'm very interested in like co-located industrial communities."
Historical Context:
Peter: "That's the way it always was until the 20th century. Right? It's a really big, big advantage for a lot of people. Even when I grew up, if a neighbor saw me doing something wrong, she might, like, slap me, right?"
Hope and Faith Framework
Logical Limitations:
Gary: "You can't logically justify hope with this much evil in the world being done in the world Without belief in God that there's divine justice and divine order in life."
Two Ways to Live:
Peter: "There's only two ways to live life... Eating from the tree of life is about I need to do it myself and by the sweat of my own brow Will I achieve things? Whereas It's basically trusting the story Trusting that you can't screw up your life."
Assessment and Significance
This conversation represents a mature dialogue between two men who have integrated faith with sophisticated understanding of business, politics, and cultural dynamics. Peter's role as spiritual business consultant provides framework for Gary's transition from secular activism to kingdom work, while Gary's tech industry connections and spiritual awakening offer unique insights into contemporary spiritual warfare.
The discussion demonstrates how traditional Christian discipleship principles apply to modern leadership development challenges, emphasizing character formation over scalable solutions and divine timing over human effort. Both men recognize the spiritual dimensions of business and political engagement while maintaining practical effectiveness in their respective spheres of influence.