Spiritual Business and Life Transition Dialogue

Date: August 16, 2025 Participants: Gary Sheng, Peter Han Location: South Congress, Austin, TX (Peter's apartment and surrounding area) Duration: ~90 minutes Context: Final hangout before Peter's permanent move from Austin back to LA, with Peter offering Gary his apartment for three weeks during Gary's own life transition period

Executive Summary

This conversation captures a profound spiritual and philosophical dialogue between Gary Sheng and Peter Han during a pivotal transition moment for both men. Peter is permanently relocating from Austin back to LA after three and a half years, following what he describes as divine guidance despite initial uncertainty about the purpose of his Austin season. Gary is in the midst of his own spiritual wilderness period, staying in Peter's apartment while discerning his next steps. The discussion weaves together themes of divine timing, spiritual business philosophy, the corruption of modern Christianity, authentic discipleship, and the challenges of living counter-culturally in a secular world.

Key Themes and Discussions

Divine Timing and Obedience Despite Uncertainty

Peter's Reflection on Austin Season:

"I prayed with a couple guys... And they all said, no, this is right. And it was either natural or awesome. It was actually awesome... As soon as I got off the plane, it was like, this is where you're moving."

On Not Being Entitled to Understanding:

"Here's the thing. It may make sense later. But I'm not entitled to know... But the important thing though is to trust the Holy Spirit. He's God-given. And I can trust him. Even if I was three years ago."

Gary's Response to Peter's Uncertainty:

"That's a good, humble idea... It actually makes me feel better that you're not sure about what the season was for. It's only been two weeks for me... I'm appreciating it."

Divine Obedience Framework:

• Trust Without Understanding: Willingness to obey divine direction even when purpose isn't clear
• Community Confirmation: Multiple trusted believers confirming spiritual direction
• Supernatural Peace: Recognition of divine peace in decisions that don't make logical sense
• Retrospective Understanding: Faith that meaning will emerge in God's timing

Money as Universal Test and Spiritual Tool

Peter's Philosophy on Money and Control:

"It's the universal test, right?... Money is controlled. It's as much as it is... It's wonderful. Right? So... The quality of weather for me, right? It's very... Change there, I was like..."

Gary's Insight on God and Wealth:

"It is funny grappling with God and money. Because it's not like God had nothing to do with you making the money in the first place. So he can take it away, slash, bring it back later. Use it however he needs to get it."

Money as Spiritual Flexibility:

"Good money is super flexible. And then other people are easily controlled by money. So it gives you a God-like power."

Peter's Seven-Month Paycheck Fast:

• No Income for Seven Months: Peter hasn't "collected a paycheck" during spiritual transition
• Divine Provision: Trusting God for financial needs during wilderness season
• Money Flexibility Test: Demonstrating non-attachment to financial security
• Character Over Cash Flow: Prioritizing spiritual growth over immediate income

Francis Schaefer and Prophetic Cultural Critique

Gary's Discovery of Schaefer:

"I bumped into this guy that encouraged me to check out Francis Schaefer. I've been watching some of his videos from the 70s... It's always funny seeing clearly an American criticizing American way of thinking."

Peter's Validation:

"Yeah, he's a... Very well-known, well-respected guy."

Prophetic Love Through Criticism:

"There's a... Scottish poet named Brendan Tonnelly wrote this poem, The Book of Judas. He said, if you want to serve your age betrayed, which it is. Expose it. Expose it. Criticize it. Love it."

Humble Critique Approach:

"What I would say, though, is that as I love this country, I'm going to point out also being humble enough to say maybe I'm wrong."

Cultural Critique Framework:

• Prophetic Love: True love requires exposing deception and compromise
• Historical Perspective: 1970s insights remaining relevant to contemporary challenges
• Humble Correction: Ability to criticize while remaining open to being wrong
• American Empire Analysis: Recognition of systematic spiritual and cultural decline

Christ-Centered AI Initiative

Peter's Introduction of Pat Gelsinger:

"He hired this guy named Pat Gelsinger. Who's a former CEO of Intel... He's known as the... Or at least was. The... The most powerful Christian in Silicon Valley."

Gelsinger's Character:

"Very serious. He's a little bit... He's very intense... Intense about his faith too. That's why he was... And he's one of the guys... Few guys who also lean conservative. And was... Local about it in Silicon Valley."

The AI Initiative:

"So he's working on building a... Kind of a Christ-centered AI initiative. What? A Christ-centered AI initiative."

Gary's Sovereign AI Context:

"So this guy, Travis Oliphant, that I stayed with for a week... The biggest thing that he's doing, revenue-wise, is he's... Setting up sovereign AIs for nation-states... And it's compatible with his view that... Christ doesn't want us to have highly centralized power."

Christian Technology Framework:

• Moral Leadership in Tech: Need for believers in AI development roles
• Decentralization vs. Control: Sovereign AI as alternative to centralized power
• Character-Driven Innovation: Technology development reflecting creator's values
• Spiritual Warfare Through Technology: Recognition of AI as spiritual battleground

Leadership Philosophy and Divine Positioning

Gary's Recognition of Calling:

"You know what I do suspect, Peter? Is that... I'm called to be someone's right hand. Yes. That's what it has felt."

Peter's Leadership Experience:

"The thing, though, that I will say, having been a CEO and having been a CFO, COO, right, CSO, is... you can observe and you can learn, but then there are an infinite number of ways to do the job, and you generally just need to learn on the job."

Adaptive Leadership Approach:

"The best analogy I can give is there are certain coaches, right, who have a system... But the best coaches go and see who the talent is, and then they... Create a system around that? Yeah, they adjust their system."

Divine Guidance in Business:

"How much do you, like, ask God for guidance, like, on... All the time. Business, okay... Sometimes you just don't know, and sometimes I'll just sit around and pray and know, and suddenly the answer just comes to me."

Leadership Development Principles:

• Right-Hand Calling: Recognition of supportive leadership gifts
• Adaptive Systems: Leadership approaches tailored to specific contexts and people
• Divine Business Guidance: Regular prayer and spiritual discernment in professional decisions
• Character-Based Authority: Leadership flowing from spiritual maturity rather than position

Friendship and Transactionalism in Secular Culture

Peter's Friend TJ - Non-Transactional Love:

"But when he was going through some troubles, right? He was going through a divorce, and he had some money problems... I'm the only one that I know, maybe I'm wrong, from his friends who lent him money and said, you can pay this back whenever. I let him stay at my place for free."

Cultural Analysis:

"People are not just here, but anywhere in New York. They're very, very transactional. Unless you have a value set beyond that, that is not rooted in men, then you will always be transactional."

Gary's Friend's $5,000 Club Table Story:

"He was telling me how... There was one instance where he spent $5,000 on a table at a club. And he... Gave an open invitation to the 30 people he sponsored at the club to chip in. Only one person chipped in. These were his friends."

Tree of Knowledge vs. Tree of Life Applied:

"This is also, once again, it's eating from the tree of life versus eating from the tree of [knowledge]. It works to a certain extent, which is why people do it."

Friendship Principles:

• Non-Transactional Love: Giving without expectation of return
• Value-Based Relationships: Friendships rooted in eternal rather than material values
• Divine vs. Human Systems: Two fundamental approaches to relationship
• Authentic Support: True friendship revealed in crisis moments

Christianity vs. Churchianity Distinction

Peter's Terminology:

"I don't even... I just say like, I'm a follower of Jesus, right? That's kind of my way to try to... Distinguish myself and be regular around me. But I think most people are... Believe in churchianity. It's a religion, right? Church is a social group."

Cultural Christianity Analysis:

"Famous quote from Troy Aikman, right? Former... Of the Dallas Cowboys... In the interview in the 90s, he was like, Troy, are you a Christian? He was like, hell, I'm American, aren't I?"

Authentic vs. Cultural Faith:

"Those things in and of themselves aren't wrong... It's just that that's not what it means to follow Jesus, right?"

Gary's Experience:

"The word Christian is just almost meaningless to me."

Asian Parents and Faith Tension:

"And it's directly at odds with Asian parents. With exception to me to say, I'm healthy and I'm happy... The only one amongst my siblings who did it the wrong way and did it, you know... caused heartache and grief to my parents because I didn't do..."

Authentic Faith Characteristics:

• Personal Relationship: Following Jesus vs. institutional religion
• Cultural vs. Spiritual: Distinction between American cultural Christianity and authentic faith
• Asian Family Conflict: Tension between worldly success expectations and spiritual calling
• Sacrificial Obedience: Choosing God's path despite family and cultural pressure

Peter's Seven-Year Wilderness Journey (2006-2013)

The Financial Collapse:

"The next seven years were absolute hell after that... Rubbed two pennies together. I had graduated college at 20. And 21 was making six figures on Wall Street. And I came... Rubbed two pennies together for almost seven years."

Divine Intervention:

"More than that. It's just God was stopping me. Right? No matter how hard I hustled. I always knew that that would be mine. If I hustled hard enough, I could make things happen. Always. Right? I got promoted very quickly."

The Egypt Pathway Blocked:

"By that time, I tried to go back to Egypt. And they just shut down everywhere... And they wouldn't let me. Right?"

Character Formation Through Suffering:

"I don't wish my life on anyone. A lot of people are like, wow. You've done all these cool things. And I didn't see the seven years of utter hell that they went through in order to get these hard character lessons."

Wilderness Principles:

• Divine Obstruction: God preventing return to worldly success patterns
• Character Through Hardship: Spiritual formation requiring extended difficulty
• Egypt Pathway Closure: Divine intervention blocking return to former ways
• Hidden Process: Others only seeing results, not the painful preparation

Believers vs. Non-Believers in Business

Peter's Disappointing Christian Business Experiences:

"Even believers. It's harder. I only lost money working with believers. Truly. Because I gave him a bit of a free pass. I'm like, we serve the same God. But just because I don't doubt their faith at all, you can serve God, but still have more integrity with money and finances."

Surprising Non-Believer Integrity:

"And I'm pleasantly surprised working with non-believers. I'm like, oh, this is actually a guy who thinks everything is right. The way he treats money, the way, even though it'll cost him, it'll be the right thing."

Gary's Austin Real Estate Atheist:

"I was talking to a friend, we both know this atheist guy who's really big into Austin real estate. He just has this radiant giving energy. And I was like, man, I really only hang out with certain Christians and then that."

Grace and Conversion Mysteries:

"Some people that I never would have guessed in a million years would receive Jesus and also become a Christian and be very serious about their faith, right? Like a complete turning."

Business Integrity Insights:

• Christian Business Disappointment: Believers often less reliable in financial matters
• Non-Believer Surprise: Atheists sometimes more principled than Christians
• Grace Distribution: Unpredictable who receives divine grace
• Value Alignment: Some non-believers already living Christian principles

Secular Marriage vs. Covenant Marriage

Peter's Marriage Philosophy:

"I don't tell people because this is an offense but I think it's probably what I think. But if I did not believe in Jesus I don't think I'd ever get married. I'd cohabitate. Like, what's the point of making a commitment, right?"

Questioning Secular Marriage Logic:

"And she says, we need to get married, I would say, why? What's the point? We're already kind of married. We're already secular married."

Spiritual Desire Recognition:

"It points at something very deep though in terms of what we want in our spirits and what we desire, right? We desire commitment. We desire, right? Even though our lives are transactional at the end of the day everyone wants someone that supposedly is committed to them, right?"

Gary's Wealth and Women Connection:

"If I went down that lifestyle, I would attract that kind of woman. That would be insatiable. Because they're not rooted in... in God's grace, right? And just filled up in that way."

Marriage Framework:

• Covenant vs. Contract: Marriage as spiritual covenant rather than legal contract
• Secular Logic Breakdown: Without divine foundation, marriage becomes arbitrary
• Spiritual Longing: Deep human desire for commitment pointing to divine design
• Partner Attraction: Lifestyle choices attracting corresponding character types

Church Community Challenges

Peter's Austin Church Struggle:

"Even for myself, what I would say is one of my biggest challenges... is that there are a lot of good churches here, but I haven't been able to carve out a community. Because... there are very few people I can talk to about faith matters that are not... Most people just can't or don't want to talk about things, whether it's questioning or whether it's..."

Depth vs. Surface Christianity:

"Most people... how much of it is subconscious that there's like a filter of a certain kind of depth because people mostly live atheist lives. And if they started to go deeper, you'd have to end up in a situation like I was with my friend last night."

Gary's Repentance Story:

"I had to repent for wanting to be a billionaire. At one point I said, why not be a trillionaire? And I was like, this is not... This is not aligned with the Bible at all."

Lifestyle Transformation Requirements:

"But to turn away from it is like... It's actually turning away from your entire lifestyle. Entire way of being, entire friend group, right? Entire friend group, entire... Even most of your Christian friend group, right?"

Community Formation Challenges:

• Surface-Level Fellowship: Most Christians unwilling to engage deeply
• Atheistic Living: Christians living practically atheistic lives
• Wealth Repentance: Recognition of money as spiritual stumbling block
• Total Life Change: Authentic faith requiring complete lifestyle transformation

Late-Stage Secularism and Cultural Analysis

Gary's Memetic Analysis:

"I've been thinking a lot about the meme of late-stage capitalism, and I really think it's more the daydream of late-stage secularism, where people think that the solution then becomes communism, but it's just all forms of these, like, atheistic, totalizing worldviews that are a problem."

Church Building Confinement:

"I do feel like Christianity, I feel like God has been put in these church buildings, as, like, you stay there, and then, unfortunately, Trump is, like, fake Christianity nationalism, right?"

The Narrow Path:

"Well, that's why it's narrow, right? You have to continuously, probably... You have to continuously and unbelievably be in accountability for it, right? So that people, and not with everyone, just trusted people, so that people can point out areas where they disagree, and then you wrestle with that, right?"

Cultural Framework:

• Secular Totalitarianism: All atheistic worldviews leading to control systems
• God Confined: Christianity reduced to church buildings and nationalism
• Narrow Path Discipline: Continuous accountability and spiritual wrestling required
• Trusted Community: Need for deep relationships enabling honest spiritual challenge

Francis Schaefer and Historical Perspective

Gary's 1970s Video Discovery:

"I don't know why I had any skepticism about reading something from the 70s or like watching them from the 70s and wondering if it would happen or if it could happen That's part of the modern brain that's like did it come out last week?"

Peter's Timeless Truth Response:

"There's nothing new under the sun. Sorry. Right? Some of this stuff that's like oh my gosh I think just recycle the same stuff right? And once you live long enough you realize this is all the same stuff right?"

Schaefer's New York Ministry:

"He had this good job as a professor at the Western State University in New York and somehow he delivered... His wife's heart was in New York City nowhere except for New York City."

New York Spiritual Warfare:

"I felt zero percent comfortable bringing this up to bring up my faith in God by my earliest faith in God to anyone there because it's just so like focused on the busyness of modern life."

Historical Wisdom:

• Timeless Principles: Spiritual truths don't become obsolete
• Cyclical Patterns: Same human nature producing same cultural challenges
• Modern Bias: Contemporary prejudice against historical wisdom
• Urban Spiritual Warfare: Cities as particularly challenging spiritual environments

Personal Revelations and Vulnerable Sharing

Gary's Spiritual Transition and Calling

Current Season Recognition:

"I don't even want to call it the wilderness. It's a little bit of slowdown. It's a little bit. Yeah. But it's just the beginning of the ride. I'm appreciating it."

Divine Breadcrumbs:

"I am sensing that there are people that... May have... May... Almost breadcrumbs for... People that... May want to... May have hints about what I should be doing."

Travis Oliphant Week:

"I spent the first week of August... With this, like, Mormon... Friend. He's a... Father of six. He's a... Open source AI legend. Very well respected. He's like... We talked about... Co-writing some, like... Christ-compatible tech philosophy stuff."

Right-Hand Recognition:

"I took a whole chief of staff course that one of my friend's wife created, which is kind of crazy. I read two chief of staff books just to prepare for the Lail stuff... Because otherwise it's just too abstract. Like, what does it take to lead a... meaningful thing?"

Peter's LA Transition and Divine Provision

Supernatural Timing:

"You know, if I had any doubt that, uh, I was supposed to lure her because it happened so fast, I was supposed to leave when I texted you, and then my... my son-in-law would say, hey, you need to give 60 days notice, and we're closing in five minutes, so you gotta make a decision."

Tools Sale Miracle:

"The person that I bought my Morris tools from is actually a friend I made here. Uh, he ended up buying them back... So that was kind of a god moment."

Current Financial Season:

"All I do is spend money here... But I know that the Lord is in control of that."

LA Community Waiting:

"In LA, I go and I've got a built-in community already there, so."

Mutual Recognition and Encouragement

Gary's Appreciation:

"I really feel... I really appreciate these talks. These have been really helpful. And calming for me. I do feel like your embodied Christianity is very different than the typical."

Peter's Church Matrix Analogy:

"But it's like they've been stuck on the matrix for so long. Even if I try to bring up an alternative way of doing it. Right? It leads to existential crisis. Because you've been taught this is the way to serve God."

Authentic Ministry Recognition:

"If you do it the right way, you're essentially working yourself out of a job. Because ultimately it should be body ministering to each other. Right? And people coordinate."

Key Quotes and Memorable Exchanges

On Divine Timing

"You can make it happen, but if you build it in the flesh, you have to sustain it in the flesh. Because being too early is just as bad as being too late." - Peter

On American Christianity

"The Americans need an empire. The Americans need a corporation. Right?... Constantine made it an empire... An American corporation." - Peter

On Money and God

"It's the universal test, right? Money is controlled. It's as much as it is. Wow. It's wonderful." - Peter

On Friendship

"Love everyone and trust very, very few. So if someone says, I need prayer, I need money, I need this, I'll discern, right? And if I give money... I don't expect it to get paid back." - Peter

On Secular Marriage

"If you're with a non-Christian woman then and you're, let's say, cohabitating with her, right? And she says, we need to get married, I would say, why? What's the point? We're already married." - Peter

On Church vs. Christianity

"I just say like, I'm a follower of Jesus, right? That's kind of my way to try to distinguish myself... But I think most people are... Believe in churchianity." - Peter

On Cultural Critique

"If you want to serve your age betrayed, which it is. Expose it. Expose it. Criticize it. Love it." - Peter quoting Brendan Tonnelly

On Divine Guidance

"Sometimes you just don't know, and sometimes I'll just sit around and pray and know, and suddenly the answer just comes to me." - Peter

Spiritual and Philosophical Insights

Tree of Life vs. Tree of Knowledge Framework

Peter repeatedly references this biblical framework as the fundamental choice governing all human decisions - between self-reliance and divine dependence, between transactional relationships and covenant love, between building "in the flesh" and divine timing.

Divine Timing Philosophy

The conversation reveals Peter's sophisticated understanding of divine timing versus human forcing, with his Austin season serving as a current example of trusting God's direction even without understanding the purpose.

Money as Spiritual Thermometer

Both men demonstrate mature relationship with money - seeing it as a tool and test rather than a goal, with Peter's seven-month income fast exemplifying radical trust in divine provision.

Authentic vs. Cultural Christianity

Extensive discussion of the difference between following Jesus authentically versus participating in American cultural Christianity, with both men choosing the narrow path despite social and familial costs.

Character-Driven Technology

Recognition that technology development is fundamentally spiritual warfare, with the character of creators determining the moral direction of AI and other emerging technologies.

Conclusion

This conversation represents a remarkable example of authentic Christian brotherhood and spiritual mentorship during a season of transition for both participants. Peter's willingness to offer his apartment to Gary exemplifies the non-transactional love they discuss, while their mutual spiritual encouragement demonstrates the type of deep Christian community both men seek but find rare in contemporary church culture.

The dialogue reveals two intellectually gifted individuals choosing the "narrow path" of authentic discipleship despite professional and cultural costs. Their discussion of divine timing, spiritual business principles, and cultural critique provides valuable insight into how mature Christians navigate complex contemporary challenges while maintaining spiritual integrity.

Most significantly, the conversation demonstrates how authentic spiritual friendship enables honest sharing about money, calling, relationships, and faith struggles - creating the type of accountability and encouragement necessary for sustained spiritual growth in a increasingly secular culture.